Discussions about life

Living Life Without Children
1

Some friends I met on the EPT and I have been talking offline. About how we got to know each other “inside-out” and how we miss that intimacy, the honesty of the discussions we used to have here. Now that we feel we’ve “healed” we feel that we have nowhere to have this kind of discussion. But then I thought about it … I am living my life without children, and no matter how “healed” I feel, there are times when this comes back to bite me. And so this is a reasonable place to have a moan about some things!

I’m going to start this by saying I know I have a good life. I know I’m lucky, that I have a home, that I have a husband who loves me, that we can travel regularly, that we don’t have any serious money worries. I’m not ungrateful.

But right now I feel empty. I feel as if my life is drifting. I feel as if I need a plan. Oddly, I was talking to a friend today whose children have both left home. She said her husband is suffering from “empty nest” syndrome and wants a plan for life now, because he feels there’s no point to what he’s been doing for the last 10 years. I can relate to that. I feel as if I should be doing something more. If I had had children, would I feel like this? Would I feel like this if I had chosen not to have children? After all, my life isn’t that different to women I know who chose not to have children (and for all my 20s and most of my 30s, i was one). Do they have this feeling of emptinesss? Or is the emptiness simply because I’m ready for a change? Every 5-6 years, I’ve had a change in career. And I’m doing now what I was doing 6 years ago. Maybe that’s it? Perhaps it’s just a mid-life crisis?

I think the reason it is getting to me is that I’m starting to look at what I’d really like to do. And I can’t do what I’d really like to do. Because I’d like to travel. For work. I’d like to live somewhere overseas again. But my husband’s parents live here. And they’re elderly, increasingly frail. And all his brothers are living overseas, earning big money. (Ah ha, I hear you say, the source of my resentment. Yes, probably!!) And we’re the ones left here looking after them. And my husband feels we can’t leave them alone. So we’re the ones visiting them every week or two. We’re the ones who have to hear my MIL worry about the sons overseas, worry that they can afford their fancy houses and big cars and fancy educations for their children. We’re the ones smiling sweetly and biting our tongues. And I feel so trapped. And resentful. And guilty for feeling resentful. But I’m making sacrifices for them. And it’s not acknowledged.

And no-one will do the same for us when we’re old.

There …there’s some honesty for you. I do feel guilty about saying this. I’m a bit reluctant to hit submit … my friends better respond or they’re in big trouble!

Linda

2

Hope its OK for me to respond to this Linda?

I am having a little of this at the moment and my little one is 2.5. I am spending time at home as we battle his learning difficulties/ autism etc…

So I acknowledge that I have a child and therefore am in a slightly different place, but god YES I know that urge for a change - I really do

Like you I feel like its all a bit of a rut and as an only child I feel the reponsibility of my parents who are in their 60s. Not only that but my step brother is now emigrating to New Zealand and he )and his wife and child) are the only family he has and me and DH feel the added burden of this

Am 35, and would love another child (but unlikely more IVF, costs and a child who already demands more time than most), have been off work over nearly 3 years and I have a small feeling of dissatisfaction

God I am waffling!! I know have lots to be grateful for, but there are many who have more (and others less). I am hoping that this is a small glitch that is just telling me that somehow I need to do something for me!!

Dont think I have been any use at all!!

LisaKaz xx

3

Lovely Linda

I am only responding because I’m scared not to! :shock: Joke.

This is indeed a reasonable place to have a moan about some things, and I’m glad you did feel able to hit that submit button. It’s funny thinking about the ‘being healed’ thing, and about not being around here much any more. I miss those good old days, when we were all falling apart at various stages! Seems strange to say that I miss the falling apart days now, but those were the times when I made my closest friendships here with people with whom I could be completely honest. I still feel that I don’t really belong anywhere in particular on this site, which is why, I guess, I’m rarely here. I still read, but don’t often post. Maybe because I think people assume I’m healed.

People in my life - friends, family, colleagues, acquaintances - believe that I have been healed of my infertility following our adoption. My closest friend only the other day was stunned when I told her how I still feel that wrenching searing pain when I see newborn babies, or pregnant women. I thought she got that, but she doesn’t. So how can I expect anyone else to understand…? Seven years on from my EP, and subsequent failed IVFs I feel more accepting of our inability to have a baby, but I’m not sure whether or not I feel healed. I am desperately sad that I didn’t know our children when they were little. I can’t answer their questions about what they were like or what they did when they were babies, or how old they were when they did certain things. I feel desperately sad that I did not give birth to them, and nurture them when they so needed to be nurtured, and that they have had to suffer such a great deal in their young lives. I also find it hard to answer the question I get asked from time to time… “If your baby hadn’t died, we wouldn’t be your children, would we?”

Do you think we’re ever healed?

I am very very happy, and wouldn’t change a thing, but as you say, those old feelings come back and bite, and they bite bloody hard.

Your words about feeling empty, needing a change, and feeling stuck and trapped leapt out at me. It seems so unfair that you have not had the dependent children that you longed for, yet are relied on by other dependants without a great deal of choice. While your friends are making plans as their nests are emptying, you are finding it increasingly hard to break free. It’s all topsy turvy. And as you say, it’s not acknowledged. You ARE making those sacrifices and you have every right to feel resentful. Please don’t feel guilty about how you feel. How you feel is how you feel.

I really appreciate your honesty. I have learned so much from you over the years. You have been consistently supportive of the women here for all the years I have known you. I’m glad you’ve reached out when you are feeling cr*p. It’s what this place is for. And your post will be read, if not responded to, by others who will value your honesty, and your bravery in saying out loud what many others can really relate to, often in isolation, behind those big fake smiles.

Great big squashy hugs and a very large glass of crisp Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc from me (although it’s not even midday yet :oops: ).

Lots of love,

Ruth xxx

4

Hello dear Linda

(and hello to Ruth, how lovely to “see” you, and your wise words, on here)

I’m not sure this helps, but I think that everyone, every human, is faced with the questions that lead to that sense of emptiness. What is the purpose of my life? Where am I going? Does my life have meaning? Am I living in accordance with my values, passions, ideals? When I die, what will my life have been worth? How will people remember me?

Personally, I still sometimes have a feeling of emptiness despite the blessing of Enzo. I don’t feel like he has solved all those questions for me or like it is ok now I don’t have to think about them. I think we are all on our own, ultimately, and all have to work out what our life means to us. He is not “enough” much as I love him. Part of that is probably (for me) ego. We have such a deep-seated need for meaning, contemplating things being random is pretty damn scary.

It’s not so much that I’m crudely trying to make the point “well I have a child and I still feel like this sometimes”. You’re asking a lot of questions about why you feel this way and in particular whether you would or would not have felt the same if you had have had children. This is something you will never know (which is hard in itself I know). The point is, you feel like this now.

Maybe it’s worth then, instead of judging yourself re whether there is justification for feeling this way or not, trying to shift the focus to accept/embrace the feelings. (Embracing emptiness and frustration?! OK maybe accept. Ha ha right, easier said than done, I feel like an armchair commentator writing that). It is worth addressing and exploring, which is of course what you are doing by articulating it here.

Personally I’m not sure whether maybe that sense of emptiness is not something which comes back to us every few years or so in cycles that mirror the evolution of our developing selves. When we have to look inside and see whether our soul, body and mind are still on the same page given how we have changed with life over the last few. Such a cliche but it’s that kind of existential crisis that often prompts introspection and then ultimately change (or small steps to it anyway).

But then, as you say in the second half of your message, you seem to be saying that actually, you KNOW what would make life feel more meaningful but you are prevented from taking steps to get there currently by circumstances. That must be deeply frustrating! I’d feel pretty resentful too if that were me. And that it feels particularly unfair and burdensome because of the children issue. I don’t know – maybe there is a clever answer, along the lines of Buddhism, something to do with growing spiritually through working on the challenges of life’s limitations, but I can’t quite get to it ☺. Think it is a v challenging part of life – being a carer – I saw my mum go through it with my dad’s mum (why is it still often the women who take on the main burden for caring? Rhetorical question).

I hear you re the siblings overseas too. There’s the issue of LWC and the issue of caring for elderly parents and they are sort of conflated. As an only child living abroad this is something I will have to deal with at some stage and I can’t exactly say I am looking forward to it either! There will be no delegation to anyone else, except to myself. Having my mum with cancer in another country at the moment has been an indicator… trying to ask friends and family to help but wanting to do it myself…. For now am avoiding thinking about that one…

And I hear you re the “no-one will do the same for us when we’re old part”. I suppose you don’t actually know that for sure (my parents and I are doing the same for my elderly (London) ex-neighbour Kate whom we have known for years and years)… and relying on children also seems risky somehow… but saying that sounds like maybe trying to argue you out of saying that and I’m not trying to do that, I hear is the OW in that sentence loud and clear.

OK… from a practical point of view, is there anyway around this? What are the possibilities of you going for such a job and commuting for a while? I have a friend in Joburg whose husband got a job in Cape Town and they have worked out some system whereby they see each other every weekend and she spends part of the week in CT. When my uncle worked for the UNHCR he saw his wife every 6 weeks on leave. Could you even take such an opportunity for a limited period, say 6 months? What is your hubbie’s perspective on this and on you feeling the way you feel? Is it worth, or possible, exploring those opportunities anyway and then seeing if you can make the other responsibilities fit around them? I guess NZ is not near other places in terms of flight times but still. Is there some action you could take which would go someway to addressing this?

I often feel frustrated here in Basel away from Geneva – feel like am having to make a choice between family and career in a stark way and that I don’t see why I can’t have both. Know it won’t be “solved” for quite some time which I find hard… I guess I cope by imagining/visualising(fantasising?!) about there being some time in the future when I can change. Sort of imagining going off to Afghanistan in X years or somewhere. Probably naïve and silly but at least it keeps me hopeful of being able to do something for “myself”… at some stage…. Which makes the frustration easier. Hope for you though there may be some nearer answers…

Wish I could help you find the answers. Obviously I can’t do but I do wish you to find the answers for yourself somehow. I know you’ll get the answers somehow and I just wish you to find your route map.

This is an enormous ramble. Not terribly helpful, sorry… but comes with my love…

Lots of love

Lillaxxxx

5

Do I qualify?

Don’t I qualify?

I don’t live my life without (a child) children, so perhaps not but the thing that struck a chord with me Linda was the ‘emptiness’ you describe and the feelings that you should be doing something.

Oddly, despite not truly qualifying, I can relate to those sentiments entirely.

I have deliberated long and hard over the last two or three years - I don’t have empty nest, I am coping (sometimes) or ducking the delights of having a soon to be adolescent, wilful (gorgeous) girl child about the place, who not only didn’t come with an instruction booklet but they forgot to include the tin hat, and riot shield as well (sigh). But anyway. My point is, having this precious child in my life, can I honestly say I do not feel the emptiness, or as though something is missing or I should be doing something, as you describe? And the answer is no, I can’t honestly say I don’t feel some of the stuff listed there … (well actually all of it).

For me, it’s about grief - the grief of moving from the maiden and mother to that of the crone … the older, (unwillingly) infertile, supposedly wiser person that age and experience has given me and is now expelling me, faster than a fast thing to the more, autumnal years, as it were. The HRT sits on top of the microwave along with the calcium Chanel blockers which control my out of control blood pressure to prove a point (sigh).

So back when I was twelve years old - or sixteen, when I was, whatever age I was, when I fell in love the first time, when I was 25 or even 35, does the life I have now match the ideas I had then?

NO

NO

NO

Are there times, when realising the life I had imagined I’d be living, when I feel like something is missing for example, that I feel …

Mmmmm what do I feel …

Sad

Failed

empty

alone

frustrated

tearful

and a whole lot more?

Yes

Yes

Yes

And like you I am not ungrateful for all the amazing things I do have … but I mourn the things I don’t have, which I always thought I would … or at least might.

I guess what I am saying is, that I thought there’d be more than this … not sure what ‘more’ there’d be but I thought there’d be more.

I am fairly certain that much of what I am feeling is related to my age, to my changing hormones, to my disappointment in life; that it’s not given me a utility room, or a garden, a conservatory or even a guest room. :cry: Or the opportunity NOT to worry about money or a lottery win, so I can build a guest room … I feel let down that life has not given me the solid, loving, extended family I crave or the approval of my father - or even the company of my mother who died 3 months before my hard won daughter was born … and did we have any kind of a relationship anyway (sigh - sadly not much of one).

I just thought there’s be more

It just never occurred to me that I’d be feeling like so much is missing and realising that I my next 10 years will be spent coming to terms with this.

I guess what I am trying to share is, I don’t feel so very different to you and so I am not sure that it’s childlessness per se that’s the culprit here, however, I am suggesting it’s a life stage and one that all women, once over “all the fuffing fours” (that would be forty fuffing four and fifty fuffing five … the latter of which, neither you or I qualify for yet, but that doesn’t mean we don’t think about it,) get to face and feel the emotions you have described.

Mmm, I am not sure any of what I have written even begins to make any sense to anyone else, let alone to you but it does to me, and that is something I have to thank you for. Why? Well, because I’d never have found the words to articulate those thoughts and feelings, had you not asked the question in the first place, so thank you dear lovely lady for doing that for me and if nothing else I hope you’ll feel comforted by the fact that despite our life differences, you have another companion here, who shares some of your ‘stuff’.

Gentle vibes of support coming your way

6

makes perfect sense to me Izzie

hugs to you too

love Lilla (the insomniac)

7

You guys are amazing. (Even scaredy-cat Ruth! :wink: joke!)

I’ve missed this. Support, thoughts about how we’re all coping with life. You brought me to tears. But then I was pretty close anyway. And I think what’s really interesting is that we all have similar feelings from time to time, regardless of our experiences, and we all try to figure out why … today I’m blaming mid-life crisis I think, because I think Izzie has it right. I don’t think it’s living without children that’s making me feel this way. Because I’d be feeling it still if I was struggling to balance work, finances and children (or child) right now too.

If some of you are uncomfortable on this board, then we could always chat on the Friendship board. But personally, I am very comfortable having you all here. In fact I love it.

Ruth, I totally understand. Adopting doesn’t cure your infertility, your wish to conceive and give birth and hold those little babies. I think we understand that here - well, I do - but I’ve heard lots of people say “you can always adopt” or “why didn’t you adopt?” and the two things are different. So I want to send big hugs. Even now, when to be honest I find it hard to imagine a life with children (mainly because I just don’t let myself), I still get those twinges at hearing about pregnancies or babies. And you know how I feel about my niece. No, I don’t think we’re ever fully healed - there’s always an itch, or a tenderness, that we don’t notice till it’s prodded. And that’s confusing to me, because I didn’t spend all my life wanting to be a mother, the realisation came later to me. And yes, I think it’s damned unfair! And I hate feeling resentful, because I have to admire my husband for wanting to stay here with his parents, to support them, even when he’d like to move too. And he doesn’t seem resentful of his brothers (just call him Saint D), so I feel really nasty by being so mad at them!!

Hey Lisa. I’m glad you responded too. I’ve been following your story, and don’t always feel I can comment, but I know it’s not quite what you expected, and that must be really hard too, even when it’s good (if you know what I mean). But can I say your parents in their 60s … THAT’s YOUNG!!! (LOL!!! I’m so old. :oops: ) Anyway, why don’t you send them out here with your step-brother!! …once the volcano calms down, that is.

And lovely Lilla. Thanks for your thoughts. I’m not sure if I’m ready to embrace the feelings - I’m uncomfortable enough with my resentment just at the moment not to be able to talk about them. Practically I’m also just beginning to explore what opportunities are there for me. Part of this comes from a conversation about saving for retirement, me not working fulltime (contracting is up and down, with the economy as you know), both of us wanting to travel. So I’m going to have to look for things that might excite me. I’m not sure about the commuting - we considered that long time ago when I was supposed to move to Taiwan for three years … looking back on it I think it would have been the end of our marriage. And in fact, I can’t believe what I’m saying now (21 year old Linda is screaming in the back of my head), but the thought of going back to work fulltime, living that hectic life, not being around for the two of us as a couple … I’m not sure I want to go back to that life. It scares me. I remember it too well, and we drifted so far apart that we almost lost each other. So I’m very careful about what I look at now.

Izzie … as always, you make me laugh as I picture you with the tin hat and riot shield!! LOL! And of course you qualify. Yes, I think you’re right. Maybe it’s accepting that life is not what I imagined - even though I never really imagined being 47, so don’t know what I expected. And the knowledge that life isn’t endless. Thinking seriously about retirement, and having to save for it, is also damned scary! And it’s closer to us now as my time in Bangkok in the past - and that only seems like yesterday. Argh! God, that list of emotions you said you feel … that is me at the moment.

Sad

Failed

empty

alone

frustrated

tearful

and a whole lot more?

And yet I feel so ungrateful that I feel like that. I know so many people worse off - a friend going through a horrible marriage breakup, friends with serious health issues, other friends with financial problems. How dare I complain?

So thanks for your honesty ladies. I think it’s easy for us to blame any feeling of depression or sadness or frustration on not having children. And yet I know they aren’t a magic solution to all our pain. How many times do we see it on these boards, women expecting that getting pregnant will solve all their problems? And they never do.

So just now, having worked through this, maybe I AM ready to embrace my feelings, Lilla!! I’m allowed to feel peeved at the BILs all avoiding their responsibilities. I’m allowed to feel annoyed at the totally insensitive MIL.

Wish me luck. The weekend will be spent at a family reunion … of my MILs family. Oh joy. :frowning: :roll: :x

Oh … and on top of all this … that damned (the bleeping censor bots are going to have a field day with this post aren’t they?) volcano better not erupt for months on end or I won’t get to visit UK and escape the long and looming winter. Grumble grumble grump!

Love to you all :smiley:

Linda

8

LOL :slight_smile: , hello you lot!

I did try to post yesterday, but the site coughed and I lost the post.

It was a long rant, so probably just as well!

Linda, don’t feel guilty, your feelings are natural, I know because I feel them too, so does my sister, so do a lot of my colleagues.

I think I presumed that it should all be plain sailing from now on after so much sorrow. What a plum!

We all know life carries on dishing out lemons.

I feel like I’ve skipped directly to retirement…without passing go, without collecting £200 :wink: .

We are the Pioneer empty nesters in our peer group?

It’s reassuring to know that a lot of this is down to our life phase…yes hands up, I’m an old crone Izz :lol: .

We shouldn’t feel guilty for talking it through, its the only way to deal with it!

Well done Linda for putting it out there for discussion.

I do think not having children colours our experiences, it’s inevitable. We must live the experience day by day, year by year, decade by decade.

But I also embrace the opportunity we have here to talk honestly with our dear friends who have all shared our journeys together. Where else would we have this freedom?

I was planning on doing lots of travelling, but bad health has intervened. We are all looking for fulfillment, no matter what our situation. I don’t have the answer. But I do know having friends to discuss it with makes the problem shrink!!!

Extra huge hugs to you all

much love

sarahgxxxxxxxxxxxx

9

Heh Linda

Good luck for this weekend first of all…

Secondly, not sure I’d pay much attention to myself (re embracing feelings) LOL myself! Guess acceptance is a good place to start.

Totally agree with others’ comments re this being something we all face… and am sorry that you are right “in there” right now because it sounds tough and painful. Hang on in there and I have an instinct things WILL evolve, maybe not exactly as planned though (as life tends to be). It is weird making that shift from young/20s… I dream this and this and this and am going to do this and this and this… to later on… feeling more life’s limitations. I am definitely also struggling with this right now in terms of “me” versus “family”.

And I hope you feel less… fearful, alone, empty. But send you hugs in the meantime

All my love Lilla xxxx

10

Hello Ladies

Well, I survived the family reunion. But of course, there were the inevitable questions “have you got children?” from cousins-in-law I’d never met, and then the awkwardness that follows. I hate that awkwardness. Before we’d tried to have kids, I’d joke it off …these days, i don’t want to be pitied, but I feel a traitor if I joke it off. Anyway, that passed, and I survived … glad to be only an in-law (if you know what I mean!).

Can I have a rant though? There was an article in the newspaper recently about a little girl who got stranded on a commuter train (it took off before her mother - who had helped her two youngest children off - could turn to get her other child). A woman took care of the child, then taxi-ed back to the original stop. (It was a LONG way from the city, out in the middle of nowhere). The woman was quoted as saying “I just did what any parent would do.” The headline said “What any parent would do.” I get so ANGRY when I see that. Of course I know what the mother was saying - if her child had been stranded she’d want a good samaritan to look after them. That she could imagine what the mother was feeling. But would she want just a parent good samaritan? Wouldn’t I do? I get so INSULTED when I see someone say this kind of thing. As if people without children don’t have the capacity to imagine the terror of the little girl AND her mother. As if we wouldn’t look after the child. As if we don’t have compassion! That sort of comment is so isolating and insulting to me. And of course they don’t intend offence. But it offends nonetheless, and hurts to the bone. “No,” I feel like saying. “You just did what any decent human being would do.” As if you’re not a decent human being until you have children.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! :x :x :x :x

OK … that’s my rant.

Lots of love

Linda

11

Oh Linda…I’m really late to this but ((((hugs)))).

Well done for surviving the ordeal…it’s tough isn’t it and those questions never get any easier…the severity of our reaction appears to be down to which day people catch us on :lol:

With regards to the train story…of course you would do…infact I think you’d more than do. You’re a wonderful compassionate lady who helps others whilst dealing with her own feelings…we all think you’re great!

Hope life treats you kinder over the coming days

Much Love

Zoe

xxx

12

Argh! I’m there with you too Linda et al - going through the motions but feeling there is something desperately missing.

It doesn’t help that I feel surrounded by babies at the moment - friends having them for the first time later in life, and friends on their second marriages having them, and other friends the same age group as me becoming grandparents - hell even relatives who are gay are adopting (not that I have anything against anyone who is gay having quite a wide social circle of close gay friends I hasten to add - they have only realised relatively recently they wanted to become parents and I am pleased for them).

I suddenly realised last week thanks to my pal and I chatting about anything and everything as we do, who has just recently had her long awaited for bundle of lovliness that I am the very last person in my whole social circle who is childless. And that has made me pause and wonder… and float a bit, and mull over it, and feel quite out of my depth with it and pause a bit more… what am I going to do exactly with my life?

My lovely hubby is going to be a grandfather in 4 months time and doesn’t know whether to dare to get his hopes up about being excited about a grandchild as his daughter has made it plain he’s only required when the old coffers are low. And he’s asking me what he’s meant to do and I don’t feel I qualify for being able to advise, although I’m trying to build bridges with his daughter for his sake, and trying to support him through this too.

But… I am stuck.

I don’t know what to do with myself, and I haven’t the foggest idea about what I really think about all of this because its one thing after another.

I have a spiteful cat of a mother in law upon whom finding out shes going to be a great grandmother said it was ‘a blessing’ hubbys daughter had a miscarriage before this pregnancy. I winced so much I almost made myself sick, then had to get out of the same proximity as fast as possible because I thought I was going to throw up/punch her on the nose squarely. Since when has losing a baby been ‘a blessing’…? The mind boggles. I was also surprised at how strongly I felt about what she’d said - and the only thing that saved her from my temper was we were in my sister in laws house at the time. And the fact I would have had to apologise to hubby for splatting his mum’s nose.

The good things that have come out of the mix are people who shunned me years ago for not having kids have actually come to realise in their own time I am not desperately child hating and a bitter and twisted old hag. Old crone yes, but old hag not quite yet - that’s for a few years time!

What to do? Hmmmmm!

Sorry Linda, that hasn’t answered your question, although the looking after the olds can be very frustrating as its assumed when you don’t have kids you don’t have other things in your life that occupy you as much as having a family does… been there and done that!

Feeling decidely woolly headed about all this sort of stuff at the moment so not much help but thankful for Linda bringing it up and helping me muddle through it all and see that others are in a similar sort of place. And feeling that I ended up parking on the old game board and not getting my £200 coz I never got close enough to get to go, was too busy admiring all the scenery along the way :mrgreen:

Love to all (and fab to see some old faces on here)

Lambs xxx

13

Lovely Lamb

I am so sorry I haven’t responded to this.

You’re going through a lot. I really find it hard when friends (or sister in my case) has a child later in life … something I could not do. Even though I love my niece, it’s still hard. So I’m sending you love and hugs and sympathies. It’s weird too isn’t it, being of the age where friends, family (or partners! argh!) are becoming grandparents. A friend confided to me the other day her son is about to be a parent. He’ll be a great parent (he’s a sensible kid) but he’s only a few months into his first ever job!! And she’s in two minds about being a grandma! (Of course, I’m not helping by calling her granny!) She at least is someone who I can talk to about my feelings about not having children, even though she’s constantly been the most clucky person I know, and talks about how hard it is going into the big M because she’ll never have any more children. Argh. I can see how hard it must be for you with your lovely hubby’s situation. You’re so great you know - being so supportive but also trying to protect him.

You did make me laugh about wanting to splat your MIL’s nose. It gave me similar ideas! They just don’t think do they? Or perhaps worse, does she think and she knows exactly what she’s saying. Goodness!

“The good things that have come out of the mix are people who shunned me years ago for not having kids have actually come to realise in their own time I am not desperately child hating and a bitter and twisted old hag.”

I do know what you mean. And send you a big hug that people might have felt that way about you. Actually, I think I wondered in fact if I was that myself. I used to put on this persona that "oh no I don't want kids" to a) stop people nagging about when I was going to have kids, and later b) to stop people asking and being sympathetic why we didn't have kids. But actually, I treasure the few relationships I have with children. We've just had DH's brother and family back for a week (they live overseas), and it was nice to spend time with my nephew. We'd got to know him better when we visited at Christmas, and so I really loved sitting with him the other night and talking about his school project he'd brought out to show us (or rather, show the grandparents), and then talking about his classmates and bullies, and the girl we think must have a crush on him and how he broke her heart! It was funny, and I enjoyed it, and so did he. But again, I do regret that none of my nieces and nephews are nearby.

It’s a confusing old mess isn’t it? Being stuck is horrible too! But then I think if this thread has taught me anything, it’s that we’re all confused. Observing my SIL and talking to her about parenting her son … well … I realise she’s as confused (even if she doesn’t realise it) as we are!

Which brings me to another little moan. Why is it that people who don’t have children don’t feel we can have an opinion on other’s parenting skills (or an opinion on how to parent a particular child), when just because we don’t have children doesn’t mean we wouldn’t do a damn sight better job than many of those who do! (Not that I’d ever tell them I don’t think they’re doing a good job - but it would be nice to be asked my opinion sometimes rather than treated as if I’m the village idiot who wouldn’t know what a child was if I fell over them!) I hate the feeling that I’m somehow inadequate, or incompetent, to have a view. I know it’s hard and I’d make lots of mistakes too - but sometimes distance gives you insight and objectivity that might help. Grumble grumble.

Anyway - sorry for taking your message and making it all about me again. Hugs to your hubbie (grandpa!!), and to you too!

Love

Linda

14

So that’s where you re all hiding!!!

I do come in now and then… Not recognsising anyone… Posting a quickie… Usually no reply… Or very small ones…

Never thought of coming here to find where the real people are! :wink:

And I too can add my thoughts here, like we used to do, 4-6 years ago, on the old site!

Life has changed so much since then, priorities have changed, not necessarily for the better, but then, at our age, we are not in charge of our destiny anymore. And with my 48th birthday looming (in less than a couple of weeks), I feel now that my destinity is all behind me. It would be so much easier NOT to make plans, NOT to have dreams… But how can we not?

Most of us need to conform: nice job, nice husband, 2 up 2 down, 2.4 kids, pets, nice holidays, etc… EASY!!!

Yeah! Right! So much can and does go wrong! And it’s only 5 years ago that my wrong bit (the 0.4 bit!) took place, but I feel so old… And in the last 5 years, I have aged so much, both physically and psychologically! I too am thinking of retirement! But only because it’s more likely to slip further away from me than I may find myself able to bear!

Everything is such a fight these days! But I guess it has always been a fight! It’s just that now, I feel too old and too tired all the time. Surely, somewhere, sometime, I shall be able to take it easy…

I guess as we all went through our EP journey round about the same time, we all came out of it at slightly different times. But age does catch up with us and memories do too… And in a way, me too, I miss the times when we were going through the pain together. How weird is that??? I think in our own ways, we were part of the life-race (nice job, nice husband, etc…) and it made us feel secure. All be it in a very cruel way, but that’s Mother Nature for you :cry: . And we all knew each other and could feel that we belonged to the ‘club’. Now, some years on, we all belong to different clubs, and our common identities have gone. We don’t feel like we belong (I certainely don’t feel I belong to this little EP community anymore, not for a long time now!). To me, I think that’s what hurt the most. Not sure what there is once you pass the baby making phase of our lives… I really don’t know. There certainly is no website for this stage of life! Cannot belong anymore, so we are left with our thoughts… And very little future to plan for…

Hey, look at me: such gloom and doom… Linda, I blame you for this! Even though you posted your post back in April… Now the Summer is nearly here, I should be thinking about our little escapade in Ardeche. In this big house, with friends and lots of kids… So many of them, can’t escape and sometimes, I want to… But, we won’t go there! Ah!!! You see, Linda, even at the end of this deep-thinking post, I have found something to look forward to… My nice holiday!!!

Nice to ‘hear’ from the old-timers. Thank you Linda for posting this, it brings back memories of a past which I sometimes like to forget, and other times would like to remind others for they all see me as I am now: a supposedely very successful woman who went through life un-harmed… If only they knew??? But we know…

Love and hugs

A-M

15

Hello everyone :slight_smile:

I was lurking after having a bit of a bad week and found myself here - Lisa-kaz & A-M it appear we are all a bit in ‘no mans land’ A-M i too miss that comaradarie and although the alts board has been my home for far too long and still feels like it i kind of feel a bit lost as to where post my news / provide support cos ive never really done the freindship board (no idea why :? ).

Anyway, i digress, im almost ready for bed so wont make this a long one but…

Linda my lovely lady, ive had a really bad week (for many reasons related to here and not) but it left me wondering in dispair - will i ever feel ‘normal’ again -i guess i was wondering if i will ever heal, will i ever feel healed and i seams the anwer is no, probably not! And you know what, actually knowing that that might be the case is somehow ok because im not alone, a bit insane (well ok just a little bit). Perhaps what i mean is its actually ‘normal’ never to heal and for this to stay with me forever. Reading your messages, as always, sheds some light on things and is really comforting although that sounds odd as you are writing about being sad or having a hard time (and for that im so sorry and want to cyber hug you) but i always kind of find it enlightening. Im glad you got through the reunion ok and how anyone could think of you as being a village idiot is beyond me - you are one very wise lady :wink:

Izzie - gosh im feeling all those emotions too! (im just an old copycat!). What you wrote made perfect sense to me. Im not quite at “all the fuffing fours” yet but it was my 40th on monday - does that nearly count (although i was really looking forward to a good excuse for a party i wasnt prepared for how it made me feel - like the end of an era? (maybe cos thats just cos it co-incided with the end of the ivf etc era :?

Group hug everyone

Sez

xxxxx

p.s ooops turned out a tad longer than i planned - yawn!

16

Hi Sez and A-M

I’m really sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner. If you’re in a no-man’s land, this is a good place to land. And it’s good to have others to share with.

AM - you say you feel old. I’ve had TWO friends recently announce they are about to be grandparents. Argh. I know it makes them feel old, but at least they have a reason to appreciate it. It just makes me feel ancient. And alone. They seem to think I should be thrilled, but really, it’s about as foreign to me as … oh … I don’t know … (to quote a friend who’ll know who she is if she reads this ) … as foreign as a foreign thing.

Sez, will you ever feel ‘normal’ again? Well, really, what is normal? For me, normal now is knowing I won’t have kids, and sometimes finding that it really hurts, sometimes being in tears, sometimes turning away from others who don’t understand that it is hard, or who make judgements. I think we heal, but in the same way that we heal from all losses or disappointments - there is still a tenderness left, that can get us just when we least expect it. It’s just that this one - the “no kids” one, or the “no more kids” one is really big. It’s one that we haven’t expected to face in our lives, whereas we’ve all expected to lose our parents before us, or to not reach the heady heights of the career that we’d like, or not to win the lottery (alas, a continuing theme of mine!! :wink: :roll: ), or … or …

So I’m glad that knowing you’re not alone and definitely not insane (no more than the average :wink:) has helped, but I truly wish you hadn’t had to go through this - that any of us have had to go through this is awful. But it does get easier I think. And I hope reaching the big 40 was ok, Sez. Perhaps because I was embroiled in all the ep/IVF stuff around that, I did NOT want to celebrate my 40th. But believe it or not, I’m actually looking forward to my 50th (remind me in a few years when I’m freaking out about it!!). I learned to like myself a lot better in my 40s, and I’m much more comfortable in my skin. Part of that is maturing, part of that is what I’ve been through I think. So getting into your 40s can be yuk, but it can also be the beginning of a wonderful adventure.

Lots of love

Linda

17

Hi Linda

Like you, still churning!!!

Last week, I was testing this lady from the Philippines and she insisted that I should have had at least 24,541 kids!!! She kept on and on about having big families and how it is like a duty as a Catholic to have enough kids to build your own football team. She simply wouldn’t stop! I couldn’t get her out of the door! In the end, I failed miserably and blurted out that I’d lost 4 pregnancies, one of which nearly cost me my life (I recently found out that during EP1, they had to resuscitate me and I had to have a transfusion, although I knew that last bit, but forgot!). How unprofessional is that??? As soon as I said it, I regretted saying it.

But it did the trick! She apologised and walked off…

I really lost it!

What is making things worse is that DS1 is currently going out with his first girlfriend and I resent that BIG TIME!!! She is stealing him from me and I don’t know how to handle it… I still feel about losing my Angels, and now, I could lose one of my ‘live’ babies… Kick me whilst I am down!!!

And as for the age-thing!!! Well, at 40, I was the healthiest and fittest I’d ever been… Then missed mc, EP1, EP2, hyster!!! Weight gain, middle-age spread, saggy bits, bingo wings, dark eye bags, do I need to go on??? Since I had the hyster, it’s all been downhill and I am not very fond of being 48…

Oh, enough of self pitty!!! :wink:

It’s a glorious day out there and I cannot moan. I must relish what I have and stop moaning!

Still… Cheers to us all 40+ and below!!!

Love and hugs

A-M

18

been skimming through some of the posts

and i m not sayin anythin new just wanted to share that the description of emptiness kinda hit a chord.

a baby wouldn t be the instant fix, but the mourning seems neverending. i see myself on the edge, tryin to grasp the family i was about to have on my own, the family that would never let me go or would put me aside

and it got taken away before i could breathe in and out.

it s been years and i can talk about it as if it s all behind

but every sorrow or mournin just seems to become a part of you, and though it s not there every day of the week, it aches and itches every now and then

that s one of the reasons i didn t go to the school reunion. they would all project the happy little life they were leadin bein healthy in a job two kids hb anyways, the usual

and i would stand out, still on sick leave and probably for a while too

there s a lot to be thankful for and thank god for those things

and then there is this emptiness, it pours in our hearts,

maybe it s the connection we miss

the spiritual connection we used to have through religion and which is replaced by consuming products

everyone has their own story and their own unhappiness or hard things to go through, and we all feel them in different ways

but they are there and won t go away

and i know havin a baby wouldn t change the past years, it wouldn t change this empty feeling, it wouldn t take away the grief

but somehow it s somethin i look forward too

but not bein in a serious relationship, …

rambling on now

it s just late

and lonely in my place but cosy too candles and a soft breeze