Requesting your thoughts re baby loss event I am organising

Polls
1

Hi lovely ladies

Here in Basel, Switzerland, where I live, I want to organise an event to coincide with the annual Wave of Light festival.

Thing is, have never done so before and have a lot of questions. I thought I would ask your views to help me. I have the possibility of doing an event with the help of my local church but would like to make it open to everyone of all faiths and none. There is also the issue of living children.

I would love to hear from anyone who has time or inclination as to:

  • Would you find it ok or off putting to go to an event in a church even if it was explicitly made open to all faiths and none? Would you prefer something else (eg strictly secular eg in a hall somewhere)? Any more thoughts on this one?

  • Do you have any views regarding the presence or absence of children? Here in Basel most people I know in the English speaking community are parents. Obviously it can be very painful in the infertility or baby loss journey to see other people’s children. On the other hand, for those who have suffered baby loss and who have living children, those children are also affected often in very direct ways. There is also the issue of access for people without extended families and babysitting possibilities. One idea could be to have two rooms. Anyway I would just be interested to hear your thoughts and feelings on this one.

Are there any other things that are really important for me to consider?

Many thanks in advance and love

Lilla

2

p.s. I said festival, I should of course have said event, festival makes it sound like a celebration, apologies

3

Hi Lilla,

In terms of what would work for me - I would definitely say no children, and I would also say to keep religion out of it. I know others will have different responses though - so just to explain why I think this way…

Children: I don’t have any, and while I hope to do so in the future, if I were to attend an event about loss, I’d want to focus on the one(s) that got away. I’m getting better around bumps, babies and children now, but I can’t help working out how much older or younger my children (if they existed) would have been than other people’s children. I can’t help thinking how much fun they would be having playing together, running around crawling under tables etc. I just wouldn’t want that sharpening of the pain.

Religion: I live in a very multicultural area, so if an event were to be even the last bit Christian-oriented around here, a large proportion of people would feel uncomfortable about attending. That would make me feel less like I wanted to attend in itself. I’m not religious myself, and do feel uncomfortable talking about loss in a religious context, as I know for many their faith is a real support. But for me I find it very upsetting to be told things about God’s plan, or that I’ll see my babies in heaven. And being in a Church would remind me of that.

But I know many people will think differently to me, so certainly don’t base your plans on my responses. I think it is really nice that you want to organise an event like this, and very best of luck in getting it sorted out. I’m sure it will bring comfort to many people.

Hugs, BW

4

Hello

I’ve just read your thread and would like to add my response.

I have to say that I tend to agree with what Badweather has said. I too have no children, but have experienced loss several times. I am now trying IUI.

At times I still have difficulty with pregnancy bumps and babies, especially crying babies and have also found myself thinking about what might have been. Therefore, I agree the presence of children would in general be a definite no.

Both my parents are from Catholic backgrounds, yet when I was born they made the decision to baptise me C of E, apparently they wanted me to have more ‘freedom’ and said that I was free to choose what religion if any I wished to be part of when I grew up. Which I think under the circumstances was quite reasonable. I stuck with the C of E for most of my life, although I occassionally looked at other religions whilst growing up. I’ve never been the sort of person to force or preach religion on anyone and kept a reasonable distance from the church, with the exception of the obligatory Sunday school as a child and other obvious family gatherings. I ended up marrying a Catholic, but this does not rule either of our lives, we are very forward thinking and open minded.

I believe that if people are religious very often they will turn to their own particular faith in times of need, whatever it may be. Therefore, any place clearly designated to one faith, in this case the church would be inappropriate for those from any other religious background, those with no religion and quite possibly even for those with the same religion. People are different and they react differently. They need to be able to come together to share their feelings without being made to feel more uncomfortable, when dealing with what is already a very sensitive subject.

The situation would ofcourse be different were it being organised by the church solely for it’s congregation or any other religious temple and it’s followers.

In any case, wherever it is held, once people are aware of the type of gathering, they would be able to make an informed decision as to whether it is right for them and whether or not to attend, it’s a matter of free will.

If this event is meant to be welcoming to a wider spectrum of people, then the avoidance of children and religion is a must.

Kind Regards

5

Hi again

I just wanted to add a couple of points, in a further attempt to ease your conscience and hopefully help you to decide.

It seems from what you’ve said that it seems very likely that perhaps most people concerned there already have children and that in additon they would be unable to find babysitters, if that is true then that is a tough one.

It’s hard when trying to generalise things and allow the maximum people access, however there always will be a majority and a minority in pretty much everything. So, do you say that children are welcome and potentially alienate the people without children or do you say that children are unwelcome at this particular event, throwing parents of living children into a lack of babysitting / extended family frenzy? Either could result in the exclusion of someone. Although, I must say that people’s child care arrangements are at the end of the day their own personal concern before anyone else’s.

I think you need to look closer at the aim and objectives of the event and the ‘target group’ I’m sorry to have to say that 'you can please some of the people all of the time and you can please all of the people some of the time’

It’s very hard to predict how everyone will react, although in my personal opinion, I would imagine that it makes sense that those without living children would be disturbed by the presence of children more than those who have living children.

If you have 2 rooms, what will you do, put the people with living children in one and those without in the other? I think that this won’t necessarily prevent people from knowing that the children are there, they will likely hear and see them still. This also means people will be segregated again too, which is the same thing you wanted to try to avoid by not using religion.

Could you provide someone to mind the children?

You already know how I feel, to make it as open as possible, the use of a non religious meeting place and no children (I’m sure the people with children would be able to understand that, they then could decide whether or not to attend and arrange child care if necessary ) Something else that I’ve noticed, very often in a couple there is one partner that is more in need than the other (I wait to be shot down in flames for that one, but it’s a fact) Let’s remember this is only my opinion, I’m not trying to speak for everyone.

Have you tried asking the people concerned what their thoughts and feelings are, perhaps that might help also.

Good luck, It’s a tricky issue, I hope it goes well.

6

I’m with BW and Butterflies on the venue aspect. As a Jew, albeit not a particularly religious one, I would never attend an event like this in a church, even though I have no problem with stepping inside a church for weddings, Christenings or funerals. But for something like this which is deeply personal, I’d feel all wrong and completely uncomfortable in a church.

You say that you can arrange this event with the help of a church. That implies to me talk of “angel babies”, “babies in heaven” and “G-d’s plan” (as BW said) which is something that makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable. Although I’m not religious (yet I’m more religious than I thought as, like most Jews, I won’t write the word G-d out in full), I’m still respectful of my religion and find this sort of talk difficult when I’ve experienced countless baby losses myself. I actually get quite envious of people who can believe in these things – it must be a great comfort. There are so many remembrance sites that I think are beautiful but I can’t join because of my faith. I’m determined to set up a non-secular remembrance site one day as they don’t seem to exist but that’s a by the way. Even if your event is non-secular, holding it in a church would alienate a lot of people.

The children thing is more difficult. I’m much further down the road to recovery than BW and Butterflies so having children around wouldn’t bother me. But I totally get why it would bother some women and if I’d recently been bereaved (I’m at the 3 year mark exactly) I don’t think I could deal with having children around. Children are notorious for screaming during events/services like this so it’s not as if you could close your eyes and forget they’re there. I can’t honestly see that any woman would object to you asking them to leave their children at home (obviously not alone!). After all, nearly every woman who’s lost a baby has experienced resentment of women who have more children than they do so they’d understand the feelings of women who have no children. I can’t see how having two separate rooms can work. It would make it very segregated and inspire feelings of “them” and “us” when women who have experienced pregnancy loss should be in it together. I’ll throw something else into the mix though. What will you do about pregnant women? They can’t really leave their bumps at home.

This all sounds very negative but I think what you’re trying to do is great. I’m all for remembering our babies and wish I had more of an opportunity to do so publicly as it might make those around me acknowledge that my losses were – and still are – very real to me. Let us know how you get on. x

7

Dear Badweather, Butterflies and Bluetopaz

Wow - thank you so much for taking the time to write back and for sharing your thoughts on this. I really appreciate it.

So - I am hearing, among other things:

  • that you think you might feel alienated or excluded or uncomfortable by the location of such an event in a church because you might associate it with particular beliefs or thoughts that are not helpful or true to you. In particular that it would not be helpful, and indeed would be hurtful, to have your losses minimised or rationalised in religious terms, such as things being part of “a plan” or “God’s plan”.

  • that you would the presence of children distressing

  • that as regards any possible use of 2 rooms, it would be important not to create any sense of segregation.

And many other points also.

I need to think more about this and this is really helpful to help me to do that.

My aims would be to make this a welcoming and supportive event to everyone, including people of all faith and no faith as well as people at different stages of grief around baby loss.

I guess to have some sense of the sacred or preciousness of life being remembered without this being presented in a way that feels alienating or judgmental. And to have some sense of ritual or beauty - I suppose that is something religions are quite adept at. And something that would speak to people where they are at. I need to think who we want to speak to in particular also.

As for who would come, that is a good question, and I suppose depends as you say on how the event is advertised and how people feel about attending - is this relevant or helpful to me or not? I have not done a survey but I imagine that among the expat community here there are people at different stages of loss and grieving.

I guess thinking about it I also have sort of idealistic-type ideas about bringing people together in some way. I am kind of inspired by a place in Bishopsgate that used to be a church until it was bombed and is now a centre for reconciliation and peace. Perhaps I need to think more about whether that is consistent with everything else.

My problem is, I want to please everyone. LOL. I am being facile but it is true in a way.

Once again, I appreciate your thoughts!

Thank you

Olivia

8

Dear Badweather, Butterflies and Bluetopaz

Wow - thank you so much for taking the time to write back and for sharing your thoughts on this. I really appreciate it.

So - I am hearing, among other things:

  • that you think you might feel alienated or excluded or uncomfortable by the location of such an event in a church because you might associate it with particular beliefs or thoughts that are not helpful or true to you. In particular that it would not be helpful, and indeed would be hurtful, to have your losses minimised or rationalised in religious terms, such as things being part of “a plan” or “God’s plan”.

  • that you would the presence of children distressing

  • that as regards any possible use of 2 rooms, it would be important not to create any sense of segregation.

And many other points also.

I need to think more about this and this is really helpful to help me to do that.

My aims would be to make this a welcoming and supportive event to everyone, including people of all faith and no faith as well as people at different stages of grief around baby loss.

I guess to have some sense of the sacred or preciousness of life being remembered without this being presented in a way that feels alienating or judgmental. And to have some sense of ritual or beauty - I suppose that is something religions are quite adept at. And something that would speak to people where they are at. I need to think who we want to speak to in particular also.

As for who would come, that is a good question, and I suppose depends as you say on how the event is advertised and how people feel about attending - is this relevant or helpful to me or not? I have not done a survey but I imagine that among the expat community here there are people at different stages of loss and grieving.

I guess thinking about it I also have sort of idealistic-type ideas about bringing people together in some way. I am kind of inspired by a place in Bishopsgate that used to be a church until it was bombed and is now a centre for reconciliation and peace. Perhaps I need to think more about whether that is consistent with everything else.

My problem is, I want to please everyone. LOL. I am being facile but it is true in a way.

Once again, I appreciate your thoughts!

Thank you

Olivia

9

As for who would come, that is a good question, and I suppose depends as you say on how the event is advertised and how people feel about attending - is this relevant or helpful to me or not? I have not done a survey but I imagine that among the expat community here there are people at different stages of loss and grieving.

Hi

Just to say, I think when looking at ‘who will come’ that would be in terms of religious orientation and how many have living children - I believe this is quite important. I don’t think anyone expects you to do a ‘survey’ Although, you mentioned that you know of people with living children amongst those you wish to attend, even that they may have issues with childcare arrangements, perhaps it is possible that you are in contact with the expat community concerned, if not at least part of it. So, it may be possible to put the feelers out amongst them and see what the general feedback is. It is a given that people will be at different stages of loss and yes the venue, advertising and other details will have an influence.

Lastly, I feel that things can sometimes seem even more difficult for those who do not have any living children, for that very reason, they will have the added weight of not knowing if they will ever be able to conceive a child that goes on to live. This is not to say that experiencing loss is by any means easy or pleasant for anyone. I know within in myself that, if I could succeed in making a baby that becomes a living child, that a great part of my grief would be eased and the hole that loss had left would be filled by the place that child takes.

All the best for your event x